Fannish Thinky thoughts

[piplover]

I'm bored, so you all get thinky thoughts.  This is what happens when work is slow.  Also, a bit of a warning. I'm very opinionated, and some of my opinions are not to everyone's liking.  If you don't like, polite discussion is encouraged, but flames will be deleted.  I'm not trying to shove my thoughts down anyone's throat, and kindly ask you to refrain from the same.

Have I scared you off yet?  If not, then please keep reading and let me know what you think. 

First off, I'm totally obsessed with Sherlock Holmes these days.  The books, the movies, the new BBC series, all of it.  There is very little about Sherlock Holmes I don't love.  Except, perhaps, the fandom.  

I think it's excellent that so many people have discovered this series and fallen in love with the characters.   What I hate, however, is how many people are obsessed with forcing women into the stories they write.  Whether it's Irene Adler, Mary Morston, or, more recently, Molly and Sarah from Sherlock.  Ugh.  

Now this is where I'm painted with the anti-feminist and misogynist brush.  Which I think is hilarious, because I am very much for women's rights and think women are amazing and powerful.  It just so happens then whenever people try to write them they come off bitchy, manipulative, and someone I would never want to talk to, let alone read a whole story about.  Which is sad, but there you are.

I love Sherlock Holmes for his relationship with John Watson.  And yes, I'm a slasher, but I also love the gen stories where they are just friends.  I mean, people, they did everything together for almost 40 years.  Most marriages don't last that long.  It is that relationship which drew me in, not any romantic entanglement. 

I think it's actually very sad that there are so few books and movies which feature realistic, likable women who are not pushovers that people have to shoehorn women into an already established series that really has no place for them save for as supporting characters.  I would hate it if the new Sherlock series marries John off, for instance. Because you can't have a relationship with someone and go out adventuring with Sherlock Holmes at a moment's notice.  Not without making the woman just a convenient way to affirm Watson's heterosexuality. 

Also, I really, with all my being, hope they steer clear of Irene Adler.  She was mentioned in one story.  ONE.  And then ACD killed her off.  I honestly don't know where people's obsession with her comes from, as she and Holmes barely exchanged five sentences.  I liked her in the story because she was smart, clever, and NOT interested in Holmes.  She married someone else, and was perfectly happy, and I thought that was great, because here was a woman who wasn't defined by her love interest of the main character.  And yet... People keep trying to force her into that role.

I just think it's a very sad thing where I don't feel comfortable talking to people in fandom about the show, because they are so determined to shove women into in, quite honestly, horrible Mary Sue roles.  Rather than enjoy the show for the adventures and the love between the two men.  

And that's my final complaint.  I think it very sad that romance has to play a part at all.  That everyone thinks people have to have sex, or get married and have babies, to be content.  Sherlock Holmes is probably one of the few heroes who can be considered asexual or gay.  But his love for Watson?  It doesn't matter if they ever kiss, let alone anything more, because they love each other so damn much.  It's apparent in Watson's descriptions, in his joy in being with his friend, in his dropping everything to be with Holmes.  And I think it's even moreso for Holmes, who has no real interest in people, SAVE for Watson, who he goes out of his way to include on his cases.  The two of them, quite frankly, care more for each other than they probably will for any other living human being, and that right there is why I adore the characters.

So, in the end, I guess I'm just tired of people trying to force the idea that two people can't love each other, can't go on adventures, can't just be happy living their lives for the thrill, without forcing romance and women into it.  I hate that I'm the minority, and that those who share my opinion are labeled as villains because we aren't "modern" or "feminist" enough.  

I guess, in the end, it just makes me really sad that I can't enjoy my fandom without having to worry about who the characters are going to be shoved together with next week. 


So, there's my opinion. I know, very long winded, sorry about that.  And I still don't know if I said what I had hoped to say.  But I'm out of words now, and would like to hear what you think, if any of you followed along this far.  Talk to me, people!

Comments

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

WORD!

That is all. *g*

[dreamflower]

Why do I like gen so much? For exactly the reasons you describe. Why does sex ever have to come into it at all. Sex is only one small part of life, and yet to look at a lot of fanfic, it seems to dominate all else.

What sucked me into hobbit fandom? That incredible FRIENDSHIP that the four hobbits have with one another.

I read slash now and then, but truthfully I honestly don't see how adding the sex in makes the story any better. Same thing goes for het, honestly.

And if there are minor female characters in a fandom, then let writers who want to write about them-- but it's not necessary to force them into relationships with the main characters when those don't exist.

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Geeze, it feels like we're the minority, you know? Whew. Just had a really long discussion about this on one of the comms. I was so happy to have people agree with me, lol!

[queerlyobscure.livejournal.com]

WORD x1000. I physically could not agree with you more.

It is in no way feminist to include a woman whose sole purpose in things is to serve as a love interest *cough*Sarah*cough*. Mrs. Hudson is, and always has been, the most positive female character ever to have been included with Holmes in any adaptation or indeed the original. She fucking rocks.

Mary Morstan, as we know, was the original 'no gay here' banner. For some reason, in our supposedly enlightened time period, the tradition continues (because gay people can't be real heroes, of course). It makes me a sad panda too :(

[piplover.livejournal.com]

I like the gen, but I also like the slash because I'm a diehard romantic. It's just, when people write women, they so often write them in a way that is really, really off-putting.

And yes, I love the friendship in LoTR. That's one of the big draws for me. I think sex just complicates things, and for a character like Sherlock Holmes, who is so very asexual and has only shown any great affection or love for Watson, I can't see him with anyone else. But still...

Wow. I said a mouthful, didn't I?

[slipperieslope.livejournal.com]

I have adored Holmes and Watson since I was a kid! BECAUSE they were good friends/companions! I find the Mary Sue shit is from younger fangirls, older fanfiction (pre-RDJ) was slash, or at least that is all I saw. Slash is feminist erotica, if peeps try to lay the misogynist crap on you they are ignorant and uneducated and need to wise-up.

*shakes head*

Keep on mining for the good stuff.

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I feel like such a minority, and I can't tell you how happy I am people agree with me. Gods, I really can't stand Sarah. There's nothing wrong with her by herself, but she was so clearly the damsel in distress that I wanted to just strangle her! Seriously? She couldn't tip the chair over and save herself? WTF?

And Mrs. Hudson totally rocks! She's the way a female should be done! I love her!

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Yes, this!! Thank you! I have noticed that a lot of the stories that bug me are from brand new fans who have only seen the new series or the 09 movie and have no canon knowledge. It just - garrh, it drives me nuts, lol!

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

Hee! It really does. I haven't gotten into the new Sherlock as I'm not fond of the portrayal of Sherlock as quite so asshole-ish (really, in the books, he's almost always very POLITE to the people he's helping - the only ones he gets snarky with are the people he knows, like Watson and Lestrade), and I really don't like versions that have them outside their proper time period, but I see what you mentioned in the fic for the movie verse and the book verse and it drives me bonkers.

Funnily enough, when I read the story with Irene Adler and at the end Watson says from then on Sherlock only refers to her as the woman - I never, for one second took that as her being the one but rather in a "that woman" sense - that woman that bested me kind of thing, not that woman I'm madly in love with thing. *snort* So I find the whole Irene Adler as Holmes' "one true love" hilariously ridiculous. :P

[piplover.livejournal.com]

I can understand your aversion to the new Sherlock. I was leery at first, but after rewatching, it really grew on me and now I think I quite like it.

And yes! I never got the sense that there was any romantic feelings from Holmes towards Irene. It was more - he admired her, because of her talent, and because she was clever. And she was "that woman" because she had got the better of him, lol. I don't know where people get that she was the love of his life, but oh, well.

[wounded-melody.livejournal.com]

Agreed with you in the comm and agreeing with you here.
If they wanted to make a "strong" female role, maybe they shouldn't have made Donovan so nasty.

[wounded-melody.livejournal.com]

I was so hoping for S to possibly be gay, not just for the slash, but because, really, can't anything *new* be done?

[piplover.livejournal.com]

I agree. It's the 21st century, and people are still afraid of having a boy who happens to like boys as the hero. Sigh. It's OK, though, because we know the truth, lol.

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Just saw a post defending Donovan because "Sherlock picked on her." Um, yeah. She was rude, unprofessional, and called him a freak, and then point blank asked who John was because he didn't have any friends. She deserved everything she got.

And thank you, again, for agreeing with me! I was afraid I was going to be trampled under posts of rabid hate, so it was nice to see I wasn't the only one sick of the useless females.

[wounded-melody.livejournal.com]

Yes we do ;)
I'm kind of hoping though, that even with Gattiss and Moffatt denying that S is gay, it's a big 'we are soooo changeable' ruse to fool us all.

[wounded-melody.livejournal.com]

Got your back, mate! Still trying to wrap my head around the whole defending Donovan posts. If she hadn't acted the way she did/said what she did, *then* I could say that S was being a total jerk for pointing out her after hour activities with Anderson.

[charleygirl.livejournal.com]

Could not agree more, especially re Irene Adler. People, he only met her the once, ffs - he had respect for her because she outwitted him, which was why he gave her that title!

I personally enjoy the stories for their celebration of the friendship between Holmes and Watson, and it always really bugs me when people try to shoehorn anything in that doesn't fit, be it sex, romance or - argh! - Mary Sues.

[odannygirl7.livejournal.com]

Stick to the slash comms, bb! :)

People extend way too much effort jumping through hoops to keep characters away from the dreaded gay. *spooky music* And at such a detriment to female characters! Stuffing a vagina into your story to keep the gay away isn't really helping anyone.

I read an interview from Moffatt where he basically said 'Sherlock's not gay, and if he was, which he's not, he wouldn't be gay for John.' and I just... the mind, she boggles. Who the hell would be be gay for if not John? Watson's practically the only person he can stand.

I have seen a few Mary stories that have her as an actual, well rounded, awesome person. I love those stories. Mostly threesomes, but I think I'd happily give up straight H/W slash for more threesomes where everyone is awesome. some here if you're interested... http://www.delicious.com/sherlockmfkinkmeme/pairing%3Aholmes%2Fmary%2Fwatson ... Holmes Gets Framed is really nice.

But yeah, so agree with you.

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

Yeah, perhaps if I liked the actors I'd have been more open to it, but I don't like either of them at all, so no new Sherlock for me. :P No Sherlock anything really as the BBC version has taken over and there's nothing left of the movie verse one (the one I actually liked fannishly - art, fic). Depressing really. :P But at least I still have the books to finish, and the few Sherlock derivatives I've bought (btw, that one I mentioned Dust and the Shadows - about Holmes trying to find Jack the Ripper - it does have a female character but surprisingly enough, she didn't bother me in the least, I actually liked her...mostly because the author didn't attempt to force her on Holmes or Watson *g*).

I don't know where people get that she was the love of his life

*laughs* Who knows? It's pretty clear from the books that Holmes only had two loves in his life, solving mysteries and Watson. ;)

Though you're right, he's absolutely asexual in the books - granted my slash goggles have me seeing a little more *grins* but even if I weren't a slasher my first thoughts would be that the man has no interest, not even a tiny little bit, in women. :P

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly! I enjoy gen stories, but I also enjoy a romance between Watson and Holmes because I admit to being a die hard romantic, and if Holmes were to ever be involved with anyone, I think it would be Watson.

Also, because of the time period, I have no problem thinking that ACD would have made them more involved if not for the laws that were passed. Things were very different, and sex between men wasn't necessarily considered homosexual until Victoria started passing laws banning it. I don't think ACD cared a whit about who was sleeping with whom, and he was such a maverick, pushing boundaries, that I wouldn't put it past him to make Holmes gay just because he could.

That's just me, though. I can totally understand wanting to stick to friendship, because that itself is so powerful it doesn't need to be improved upon. I've banished LION from my brain. It does not exist.

[piplover.livejournal.com]

I know, that interview boggled my mind. I mean, seriously? Who else would Holmes get with? Watson is the only one he has ever loved, ever really cared for. I can't picture him with anyone else, let alone a woman. Sheesh.

I have seen a few threesome fics, but I can't get into them. I don't like Mary very much, though the 09 movie version was tolerable. Mostly I hate how people try to shoehorn her into the stories and make her have adventures with the boys, which I can't stand. Just - no!

But thanks for the offer!

[gaiusthegenius.livejournal.com]

Wowzers. Here I was, thinking that I was the ONLY ONE who was frustrated at fandom! I think that it is ridiculous that, if you were to go by the RDJ film alone, you would assume that Adler was in every single ACD story. And I also totally get what you're saying about the female characters in fandom, always bitches, am I right? Why not stick to the original characterisations and relationships? I heard that Adler was going to be included in the next series of Sherlock, and to be honest I am not hopeful in regards to what they will do with her.
"doesn't matter if they ever kiss, let alone anything more, because they love each other so damn much." YES. These two clearly absolutely adore each other, you can't miss it, and it is the emotions there that make me love them; the relationship between them is what makes any adaptation - written or televised - worth a shot, in my opinion.

[piplover.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, exactly! I, too, am a little leery of them bringing Adler into the next season of Sherlock, but I'm crossing my fingers that the boys are enough fanboys themselves that they won't make her a love interest. My biggest fear, though, is that in the Adler story, Watson is married!!! So here's hoping they don't go down that road, because that would just suck.

Anyway, thank you! It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who is sick of women being shoehorned into a story they really don't belong in, especially when they are just bitches, lol! I mean, honestly, if you reversed the dialogue and had a man saying half the stuff they do, they would be considered sexists bastards. Yuck!

And I'm going to stop before I go off again, lol.

[potatoesrock.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you, and thanks to you now I finally know why I love women so much IRL - well some of them, and I mean in a platonic way - yet as soon as it's fandom realm, am irritated by them. It's different with "real" novels though, for instance I can think of a few favourite books, and most of them have a female main protagonist that I genuinely loved as a character. Why is it that in fandom people make women so dislikeable? Just... HOW is it? I think it's because most of the time female characters aren't developed enough, and they always appear insipid in comparison to their male counterparts.

As for the compulsory urge to add sex and romance EVERYWHERE, gee god thank you for pointing that out! Two people can deeply love eachothers and want to spend every moment together WITHOUT there being nothing but genuine friendship and affection. And two people can be "soul mates" on a purely platonic level, and that's one of the most beautiful relationship that exist. I'm a bit on the naive side, so I don't like it when people "see" things that aren't explicit nor implicit. And, although as a slasher it is very enjoyable to see the whole Holmes/Watson relationship as them being in love, I can frankly say it strikes me as perfectly acceptable that they're just two buddies enjoying each other's companies more than any other person. I don't know why nowadays people see this kind of thing as "juvenile", because your most intense relationship is supposed to be with your lover/wife/husband. But, I really think Watson - although heterosexual - connects on a deeper level with Holmes, just as Holmes - asexual or gay of whatever - feels the same for Watson. And I do think Mary's character seemed a bit of a way to assert Watson's sexuality to the readers, rather than an important character.
Also, I can't help but think that Watson's wife was an inconvenience to ACD, because a married man is "hindered" by his marriage unlike a bachelor who can go on his merry way and follow Holmes on their adventures.
As for the BBC version, unlike the books and the movie, I don't really get gay vibes. I mean, John appears perfectly straight and uninterested in Sherlock sexually, and Sherlock appears uninterested in sex. Their relationship is a deep friendship, but it doesn't seem as intense - and therefore, as ambiguous - as the other Sherlock Holmes I've read/watched.
What I rather like about the 09 movies though, is that - at least IMO - the love triangle (or in this case it's more like a square) does work for once. The women have more personalities than in the books/BBC, and I can feel love/tension between Holmes/Irene, Watson/Mary and Holmes/Watson without the other relationships negating one another. It actually works for once, and I think that's why it's my favourite verse.
I'd be very disappointed if BBC!John ended up married and living out of Baker Street, hope this doesn't happen, especially since - except Mrs Hudson - most of the women are kind of meek.
Wow, sorry about the long rant ^^''